00:00.00
vigorbranding
Everyone today I’m joined by my friend Richard penic he is a brand strategist and fractional cmo fractionable is what I said that’s a very important new word that you guys need to learn and we’ll talk about that and more but before we get in say hello give a little bit backstory.

00:15.40
Richard Pennock
Hi Joe good see you yup so my name is Richard Pennet I’m born raised in the uk undergrad I was a historian at the University Of Leeds which is in the north of england um I spent 3 years at b jk and e which the W P P Media agency and then in 2006 I moved over to the us I did my Mba at Georgetown and between first and second year I married my then-girlfriend now wife Amber who is from the United States thinking I would spend a few years in the us think it’s seventeen years later I’m still here.

00:50.53
vigorbranding
Yes.

00:52.89
Richard Pennock
I via Minneapolis I spent a few years at Target I worked in corporate strategy and marketing and then moved over to an agency up there Olson spent a few years there they then acquired a company down in Austin Texas and as much as I enjoy Minneapolis the. Winters were a little brutal and the temptation of sunshine and and all Austin had to offer was too much so I came down and I ended up staying um and amongst other things down here I had the marketing at taadelli which is a cult Austin Restaurant brand 12 locations I believe it is now in Austin Dallas and Houston and then moved over to free birds and was a Vp of marketing head dump marketing there for about a year and then I decided to step away and I am now exploring entrepreneurialism um. And working as a fractional cmo and consultant.

01:49.40
vigorbranding
Awesome. It’s it’s quite the impressive cv especially with that georgetown flex. That’s great and I completely would do the same thing. In fact, I kind of did I moved from Pennsylvania to Atlanta thinking I was going to get much warmer. And I feel like I still need to go further south I just hate the snow in the cold. So I’m with you? Um, so you’ve done a lot. Um across both the agency side and the client side. Um, how have you made that transition. Um.

02:09.69
Richard Pennock
Fish oil.

02:25.50
vigorbranding
From agency to client side. What were some of those challenges and how do you overcome them.

02:27.34
Richard Pennock
Sure I mean it’s it’s an interesting question I suppose there are many dimensions to it on the agency side. You tend to be focused on 1 particular discipline in my case, brown strategy. Um, and you really become ah an expert in that space so you go deep but typically across. Multiple industries. Um and and really kind of hone those skills and and that’s you know, interesting compelling then when when 1 comes client-side you know you you move into a senior marketing role and you realize that. While the you know the brand strategy background is is certainly um, fundamental you have to become much broader in your skill set. Um and I suppose spread yourself much wider. Um, so there’s a learning curve in terms of you know other disciplines. Um. You also have to become comfortable becoming and reliant on others. Um you know your team becomes become super important. The people you surround yourself with um and really have to go on ah on a journey of continuous learning I think one of the things that I realize coming out of business school was I think for a short period of time I i. Felt smart and I felt like I had you know a lot of things down I felt ahead of the curve. Um, and then you know as you progress in your career. You realize that marketing as a discipline is is evolving and changing and moving so quickly that you know. Continuously immersing yourself and learning is is absolutely critical and as you come into, you know a leadership role client side. Um, you know it’s even more important you cannot master everything but you need to know enough that you can have insight. Give feedback critique and and and and move move the move the brand forwards.

04:18.70
vigorbranding
I yeah, that’s such a. It’s a good point and it makes me laugh and there’s a part of me that also feels bad. So like when you when you do a strategy. Let’s say let’s take the the worst or the most drastic right? So you do a brand strategy in let’s say 2008

04:35.14
Richard Pennock
Even.

04:37.52
vigorbranding
And you have you have a marketing strategy and all the stuff all the things you want to do and and you’re saying certain things to your client whether it’s a c- level leadership because you’re ah a you know client side or literally with the client across the table because your agency side and so you’re you’re saying these things and you’re pushing them to do amazing things to get the traction yada yada. And then the Iphone drops and then like half the things you said that were valuable and had to happen have actually shifted now. Now you’re like no, we need to be here and I think it almost gives marketers and marketing leaders and thinkers a little bit of a stigma from the more. Ah.

05:03.34
Richard Pennock
Yeah.

05:17.41
vigorbranding
Rigid and steadfast group of the operations side or even president Ceo side that are looking for stability and control and mastery using my archetype terms there you know as opposed to.

05:21.10
Richard Pennock
For sure.

05:32.67
vigorbranding
They see marketers and we maybe have this stigma of kind be a little more willy-nilly a little more less put together. Oh their strategy shifted does that mean they were lying to us before or are they lying to us now. So we almost have the stigma of like at best curiosity. Peakd or interest peaked and at worst liars I mean there’s there’s a whole book called all marketers are Liars it’s actually quite a great book. Um, have you encountered that and and if you have how do you talk to the operation side and at the president level.

05:52.80
Richard Pennock
Yeah, yeah.

06:08.96
vigorbranding
And give them assurances of the stability and the control and the processes that they need to see to feel confident in what you’re doing.

06:15.52
Richard Pennock
Sure I know I think and I think you make a very good point right? You know on the agency side. You know you’re often challenged to to really push the limits. Um and see how far you can stretch something and I think good clients really want that but good clients have to out as the bridge. Back to the business and really understand where the rubber hits the road and how to translates a lot of that great thinking and that great strategy into something that’s sort of practical and that and that the business can bear right? It’s the you know strategy you know strategy is useless if if it can’t be executed effectively. Um, honestly Joe for me, you know the best brand strategies are those that don’t stick in the lane of marketing. They are things that truly influence and affect the entire business I mean that’s you know a brand brand is not is not singularly marketing right is every experience every touch point. That guests employees have with the company. Um, and if you’re yeah, no.

07:18.30
vigorbranding
100% sorry sorry to jump in but I’ve been notorious for saying this brand strategy is business strategy like period. Yeah I’m with you i.

07:25.16
Richard Pennock
Hundred percent hundred percent and it’s so interesting I mean in my experiences often I’ve come into roles whether it’s on the agency side or on the client side and the conversation has to start around brand strategy is this as this. Um, marketing discipline and and very much kind of sticking in that lane but the true excitement comes when you start to see the eyes light up of Ceos operators you know folks in ah hr and they can start to see how this strategy and the narrative behind it. Can start to affect in a positive sense. Yeah, all all facets of the business and their particular discipline and give clarity and focus and consistency and I think that’s where it starts to become really compelling. It’s knowing that. Um, you know operations and the hr team and marketing and everyone is is is operating in lockstep. Um, and so I think you know I don’t think it’s a question of selling so much as as enlightening and and getting bringing them along with the. With with the strategic narrative and then seeing how this can actually bring clarity for them. Bring focus I mean ultimately, that’s what strategy is right? It’s ah’s ah it’ it’s making a set of choices and deciding where you’re going to place your bets and if we’re all placing our bets in the same place in a place that we all believe. Then there’s going to be excitement enthusiasm momentum um, and that can be truly transformative for a business.

09:00.28
vigorbranding
And and should be like you said so we spend a lot of time and we’re developing strategies for our clients I’m notorious for saying any time that they say well your strategy or the vigor strategy I’m like no no, no, no, no, no, this is your strategy. You know this is from you. This is to your organization. You need to own this. You need to adopt this this is yours this is not ours. We may have done it for you. We may have done it with you I should say but it’s yours and we we spend a lot of time ah fostering championship around the brand who’s gonna own it who’s gonna. Trickle it down who’s gonna shout from the rooftop as it were but I really like your metaphor of um of what you just said? Um I just blanked on it though. But anyway I really like that I mean like when when you’re lockstep and everybody is owning the strategy it makes identifying. The right? good ideas as well as identifying the wrong good ideas. So ideas are great and everyone has them. But you need a mechanism to evaluate and say hey while a Doritos Loko’s Taco Rip off will be good for our like would be a good.

10:07.28
Richard Pennock
Touched with.

10:15.20
vigorbranding
And it would sell it just isn’t our brand and it doesn’t make sense here. But.

10:17.94
Richard Pennock
And I think that’s the perennial challenge right? It’s always the you know there can be good ideas and interesting ideas that in isolation can drive sales move a business forwards but the challenge is when you start to have multiple. Interesting ideas that aren’t aligned around the strategy. The danger is that you start to create organizational in the extreme chaos. Um, and you know there are great ideas that can work in the short term. But if they’re not a line with the strategy. You know we need to thoughtfully put them to one side. Or if we feel so compelled then you know we need to go back and look at the strategy because maybe we don’t have the right strategy and that’s okay, right? Um, you know strategy. You know what’s the saying um in in in they say in in. Going into battle. You know the the best lady would like um my exact this but it’s something about you know, the strategy is great until until first contact and then it all comes apart right? Um, they exact there you go far more eloquent far more eloquent. Um, but that idea that.

11:19.79
vigorbranding
Yeah I think Mike Tyson said it better. Everybody has a plan till they get punched in the face. Yeah.

11:29.99
Richard Pennock
Yeah, we know you have to be flexible. Um, you know the worst I think the worst strategies are when you are so rigid and dedicated and committed that that there are forces that are compelling you to reevaluate and that’s okay, right? That’s absolutely fine. That’s the business is is moving so quickly these days. Um. But we need to be disciplined enough to sit to know when to say no and that’s the great challenge or one of the great challenges.

11:54.87
vigorbranding
Yup, yeah no I mean no such a powerful word and what’s what’s interesting is when you have a small growing brand and by small in in the restaurant space I would put small as the 1 to 50 unit.

12:08.54
Richard Pennock
Sure.

12:10.79
vigorbranding
Think after five zero you start to get into medium and then medium just level setting here medium would probably be 50 units to about 200 maybe around there and then it starts to become large um, but the the issues faced in that small to medium size the snbs as they were. Um, are shared and a lot of it ladders up to brand and it ladders up to a Ceo or a director of operations that is focused on efficiency and reducing. Um you know labor labor fees or all that in the line item. Basically just how do we make things like ah as least expensive as possible and as smooth as possible but that sometimes can be antithetical to the bigger brand picture. Um you know and so I think ah, a good example that would actually be the antithesis. You know I read maybe an anecdote maybe a true account of um southwest airlines.

12:51.60
Richard Pennock
Newly.

13:08.10
vigorbranding
Their purpose is to be the least expensive airline in the sky and so with that focus and that that gold standard or mantra as it were when somebody came to him says Guys. We can do a filet mignon people want it on our long flights. Question becomes is that going to help us be the cheapest or least expensive airline in the sky. Well no, but stop at the butt. It’s a great idea I Love file a mignon. It’s not the right choice for us and I think it’s that having a leader that knows how to absorb own and then I Think. You kind of mentioned pivot withth The strategy is so invaluable. Um, so you you and I met when you took the helm of ah of the Brand Taco Deli you mentioned just a minute ago and you led a very successful brand evolution and you also mentioned it’s It’s a cult favorite. So. I mean talk about a very surgical operation. Um, how did you go about approaching that effort and and what were some of the challenges and full disclosure for those listening we were not selected. Okay, but but the the work nonetheless turned out quite Fantastic. It was one of those scenarios where even though we’re competing against I Believe the company was Butler Brothers and we did not win the day I was impressed with their work I think they did a pretty good job I definitely have some of my own takes on some things I thought were off but overall Success. So How did you do that? How did you.

14:40.37
Richard Pennock
Sure well I think the first word is carefully um I mean to your point right? This is ah this is a cult Austin brand Austin has a very good sense of itself and you know here’s this british guy coming in to this brand from.

14:41.81
vigorbranding
Go about approaching that effort. Right.

14:59.87
Richard Pennock
Essentially out of town. Um, and so you know ah quite understandably I think you know organizationally and and in the community and ah amongst you know, real brands. You know brand enthusiasts. there’s ah there’s a perception there could be a real danger here right? Um, and so you know. Almost my first principle was be humble, right? Um, you know I need to I need to you know do my research. Um, you know we did the quoll. We did the quants we taught a lot of people but really going with a degree of humility it was for me to listen learn understand. Um. And here’s the thing. The great thing about tacheddeliian I think you know in a sense there are there are 2 types of brands right? There are some brands that are struggling to find a truth um and then there are brands that have so many truths the struggle is which truth you’re going to lean into um and and and then how are you going to cascade. Um. Everything from that singular focus. Um, and so really for me with Tagod Elliot was about listening kind of you know, understanding where the great. The greatest opportunities were in terms of the brand positioning um and then really kind of carefully playing those. Back to folks and and getting reactions both from within the company. Obviously you know the founders and the owners who deeply invested and and and have a great sense of of the brand. Um, and then you know back to back to brand champions in the community. You know the worst thing that we could do. Go in and completely. Um, completely you know sort of egotistically blow this thing up. Um, yeah I mean yeah and and rebuilt which was not the challenge. It was it was as much about um, focus prioritization and articulation and then bringing it to life in a way that.

16:37.81
vigorbranding
Yeah, burn it down.

16:52.87
Richard Pennock
That you know move the brand forwards but felt um, true. Um and like ah a natural evolution of um of of the long history of the brand. Um, so it was a very sort of you know there was it. It was ah it was a long process. There was a lot of back and forth. Was a lot of tweaking um, but really, you know I feel like I was the the enabler the facilitator but it wasn’t for me to say yes, this is this is this is where we this is where we you know where we where we need to land. This is this is you know. Wasn’t for me to go in and sell it hard right? It was for me to listen learn. You know, present present Articulations and then um play those back and and really sort of carefully focus and home. Um, and it was it was it was ah it was a it was a great experience. Um.

17:32.12
vigorbranding
So.

17:50.72
Richard Pennock
You know there was a lot of like I said a lot of back and forth. Um, a lot of delicate work. But you know I I feel we landed in a great spot and you know it really did act as a catalyst for for a lot of sort of strategic thought within the company and. Certainly the things that you know you and I would think about when we think about you know, classic brand strategy in terms of visual identity. You know, logo restaurant experience but you know I think even more broadly than that and that’s what made it incredibly satisfying.

18:19.71
vigorbranding
Yeah, so for for those that are unaware I probably should have level set this first. Ah taco deli is like Richard said a small chain about 12 units. They’re known for of course tacos. However, in the I would say taxes but specifically Austin area. Tacos are breakfast and lunch. You know so taco deli was open till about three p m every day starting what at 6 a m or 7 am m 7 am m and this is a few years back. So I don’t know I think they’ve changed a little bit because of the pandemic and you know money talks. However.

18:46.42
Richard Pennock
7 a m yeah 7 am am yes

18:58.12
vigorbranding
I Always thought that was a very great value because at three Pm You basically had your night to explore side hustles Whether that side hustle is a hobby or a true hustle meaning you’re you’re looking to build something to eventually go off and do full time yourself. Um. So They have breakfast tacos. They have great salsas and all it stuff and it is a quickserve format even though it’s Elevated. It’s still quick serve you order at the counter you get your food and you roll or or hang out at a small dining area but from what I recall.. There’s not a lot of dining area in most of them Very small footprint. Um, so great Concepts so you went.

19:30.51
Richard Pennock
Correct correct.

19:35.97
vigorbranding
You went from the the brit went from taoss to burritos and you shifted over to Freebird’s world burrito which has a fantastic purpose baked in at least outside looking in. Um, you know for those listening if you don’t know freebis look them up one of our previous guests. Ah Bobby Shaw

19:39.64
Richard Pennock
Yeah.

19:55.13
vigorbranding
Had some experience at freebirds as Well. Um, so when you went to from tacos to burritos. How was that transition because you know freebird’t didn’t necessarily need a brand evolution. Um. But they definitely needed marketing. So What were some of the challenges there and and how did you make that shift. So.

20:13.38
Richard Pennock
For sure. Well I mean yeah, it was moving from as you say a restaurant with 12 locations to north of 50 locations. Um, and so you know there there is just ah, you know a different kind of organizational dynamic right? At that point. Um. And so you know just getting kind of getting a handle on on that was important but I think the principle’s still the same. Um, you know you have to have a you know a clear well articulated compelling brand strategy. And using that for using that as the foundation to identify opportunities to you know grow the brand push the brand forwards you know, drive sales um to me that that principle still remains I think the great challenge and this isn’t particular to freebir. Necessarily but you know there’s this sort of almost this kind of academic way of which you want to do things right? which is we’re going to start with the brand scratchy and then we’re going to. We’re going to look at this piece. We’re going to look at our loyalty program and then we’re going to look at our our our paid media and so on and so forth. Course the train is moving right? Um, and you know you’ve got to got to keep things going. Um you know, even though 1 might want to start from the beginning and so the great challenge I think is is you developed you made the point about the the ninety day plan as you develop a plan. How do you develop a plan that is both short terms in terms of you know, being able to have some quick wins being able to drive some sales today tomorrow but then also is looking longer term um more towards the sort of the long-term brand evolution. And and and and so on how do you build that plan at the same time and then keep the things moving together. Um, that’s the great challenge. Um, and you know as with any business you know there’s always you know limitations around around resources and so how do you then.

22:13.29
vigorbranding
So yep.

22:25.73
Richard Pennock
Prioritize across those short-term needs versus those long-term needs. Um, and so you know that was I suppose a lot of my thinking going into the role at Taco Delli going into the role at Freebirds. Um, different context but but same principles. Um, and you know it’s a it’s a. It’s ah it’s a fine line that one has to tread.

22:44.43
vigorbranding
Yeah, you almost have to be um, maybe have a better word for this but I would say a flexible idealist. Um, you know so it’s like I think you you have some people that go in that are flexible.

22:52.86
Richard Pennock
Like that like yeah.

23:03.13
vigorbranding
And you have some people that go in that are idealists and I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with an idealist because in the long term like you said the ideal is the goal you want to work towards the ideal. Um, but I think pure idealists get frustrated by you know some of those ah holes in the wall of the ship that are.

23:09.90
Richard Pennock
Meaning.

23:21.65
vigorbranding
You know flooding in water. Um, and I think there’s you know, being flexible or maybe a realist idealist is a better more quippy 1 ne-liner in in the real. Ah the realness of it is. There’s varying degrees of holes in the wall in in the hall I should say. Ah, you probably want to tackle the biggest ones and just succumb and realize that you’re still going to take on water until you can actually appropriately and effectively fill in those holes and it is a process and it is a journey and the building the proverbial plane as it flies is very real I think that.

23:39.93
Richard Pennock
M.

23:58.80
vigorbranding
Some leaders are so desperate for a complete answer immediately that they’re not ready to accept that you’re still going to take on some water as we fix this and that we are working towards an ideal but it is a journey. Um How how have you mitigated. That sense of urgency or maybe stubbornness with needing the right answers all at once have you come up against it.

24:23.16
Richard Pennock
Sure? Ah I think and I think we all come up against it at various times in various guises. It’s kind of cliched and perhaps a predictable answer. But I do think one of the things that that’s critical coming into a new role like that is quick wins right. Um, show that you can do a couple of things that can move the needle that can have some change that can you know whether drive some sales address an issue. Whatever else. It may be and there’s just a degree of credibility that comes with that. Um, you know that that to me is that to me is huge. Um. But then not losing sight of the longer term and and being um, you know a little bit stubborn in that regard right? Um, you know there’s there’s there’s all these pressures in the in the immediate. Um, and you know often a desire for you know now now now which is completely reasonable. And and you know it got to drive sales right? We’ve got got to got to move things forward today but being a little bit stubborn and being a little bit. Um just just focused I think might be a better word on on the value of what’s brand strategy and. And um and you know can do in the long term to really um, you know have ah have a bigger effect and I think there is a degree of stubbornness and determination and just just just commitment that you know one has to hold oneself to.

25:52.75
vigorbranding
Yeah, and I think it’s up to leaders too to hopefully understand that encourage the movement forward but not focus in on the remaining suite of issues that need to be addressed because it can be very dejecting. It can be very discouraging. It’s how you lose a good leader an otherwise fantastic Cmo or Co or whatever director of kind of person if you know if they have a win recognize it. You know celebrate it.

26:21.37
Richard Pennock
Yeah, but yeah and Joe I would say the other the other piece of the other pieces. Um, yes, you know there are opportunities to solve some of those short term issues but the value of that longer term strategy is that when you then go to solve those issues. You have the lens through which to put the solutions. Um, and that is just that is so powerful. Um and and frankly efficient right? I mean businesses are always looking for efficiency. Um a compelling brand strategy when you start to look at. Loyalty strategy or you know media strategy. Whatever else. It may be um, that becomes the lens through which everything else is put and yes, we’ll articulate a a loyalty strategy that is that is that is standalone but ultimately laddering up the Brown Strategy you’ve done a great deal of the work. Um, and so you know recognizing that that that can drive efficiency. Um and alignment down the line I think is is very powerful and as a marketing leader. It’s you know it’s your job to to help others understand um that that reality.

27:36.85
vigorbranding
In.

27:38.35
Richard Pennock
Um, and get them. You know aligned with and bought into the long term 100% and like I said I think that’s true of of most every um you know most every marketing leader. Certainly you know my experiences? Um, but I know that’s that’s that’s why we get paid. Right.

27:57.69
vigorbranding
That’s right? Yeah well I mean some leaders come into it I think with heart in the right place but maybe head not in the right place in times and what I mean by that is you know I’ve definitely seen cmos that have all the answers.

28:06.32
Richard Pennock
Even.

28:13.17
vigorbranding
And they come in like a wrecking ball. They want to force square pegs in the round holes because they have the solution. They have the answer. They’re confident and it’s probably what got them the job but you almost position yourself as a hero and when you come in and people realize that oh no, he just likes to wear a cape. He’s actually just a normal person. Or she it. It can be quite discouraging and I think that’s maybe um, you’ve you’ve seeded the wrong kind of plant there. Um, as opposed to being very levelheaded being very realist but idealist at the same time which puts you in a good position because your first ninety days um there’s actually a fantastic book that is aptly named the first ninety days. Um, we’ll have a link to it in the show notes my friend and client Daniel Gonzalez from simply salad over on the west coast he suggested I read the book. It’s fantastic because your first sunny days actually has very little to do with getting things done done. It has very much to do with. Building rapport relationships understanding systems finding champions finding people who are maybe hesitant to get on board and realizing what their motivations are while trying to plug some quick wins like you said and the worst thing you can do. Steam roll in there and force it because you actually lose you lose the team you lose the people that are there to actually enforce it. So it’s a great book I suggest anyone reading it especially when you’re transitioning and it and when I read it I looked back on all the times I took on a new role. You know prior to vigor.

29:34.60
Richard Pennock
Mm.

29:48.43
vigorbranding
And thought oh my God I was an idiot I was doing all the wrong things and that explains why I got a lot of pushback in certain areas where at the time I was confused I’m like I’m trying to help Why are you against me but it very much is a human dynamic. So ah, the final thing I really want to dive into here is you know you had mentioned earlier.

29:58.15
Richard Pennock
Click.

30:07.50
vigorbranding
Ah, rightly so that this this marketing industry not just the restaurant marketing but all marketing is so fluid and ever changing and technology is the biggest word right now in in the restaurant world specifically as Well. So. How have you leveraged tech to bolster and build your marketing efforts and have you found any platforms that you think are reliably effective and Invaluable. So.

30:36.50
Richard Pennock
That’s a great question I mean technology it flows through everything right, everything that we do in marketing these days or almost everything. Um, you know I’m not sure if this this directly answers your question. Um, but I think it’s ah I think it’s an important point to make I think as a marketer back to. Comment I made earlier about you know, limited resources and trying to be efficient I think the particularly for a small mid-size restaurant operator operator I think the biggest challenge in opportunity are technologies that from. A user experience perspective a great for the guest but also great for the marketing team. Um, you know I’ve often spent I feel like I spent too much of my time um, battling the tech. Um um, and battling the the interface. Um. In order to to push out a campaign to get to get something out there that that seemingly um, you know should be relatively straightforward and I think you know that’s great if you’re a you know if you’re if you’re a large company and you can have someone 100 % dedicated to a particular piece of tech. Um. But I don’t think you should have to have and I’m being a little facetious here. A master’s degree to to operate some of the some of the marketing tech that exists out there I think it should be intuitive straightforward and yes make it easy for the guests but also make it easy for for for the the marketers and I think the companies that. Do a great job of that and understand both sides of the equation. Um, um, are those you know who are who who are going to succeed. Um you know I know it’s um, you know freebirds and they yeah this was announced a while back one of the ah. Technologies that they’re embracing is cube beyond um, the the po the pos provider um and in a sense you know I think we’ve all experienced this in the restaurant. But the pos is both this sort of is this hub. But it’s also these handcuffs um and you know we spend so much time figuring out.

32:28.45
vigorbranding
So yeah, the Pos system. Yeah.

32:46.37
Richard Pennock
How the different the different platforms that we want to leverage can can interact with and interface with the pos and it’s become you know I can think of multiple examples where I’ve been using platforms and ah you know we’ve had problems with the. With the data because it’s not.. It’s not cleanly interfacing with the pos at which point it’s kind of terrifying right? because you’re like well do I Trust do I Trust the data. Um, arguably it’s more dangerous to have to have inaccurate or or misleading data than it is to have to have any data.

33:08.77
vigorbranding
And.

33:20.85
vigorbranding
Yeah, we call dirty data. Yeah dirty data is horrible.

33:22.38
Richard Pennock
Um, and exactly exactly um and so you know I and I certainly don’t want to to to speak for for cubion. But you know I think the questions that they were trying to answer in terms of ah, um, you know a seamless experience. Um. Certainly for the guests. But also you know a seamless experience on the back end and all that it sort of opens up and enables rather than handcuffs. Um, you know I’m excited to see how that how that pulls through um, um, and really you know as. I Hope in the future I have the opportunity work The brand who has taken them on board and embraced it and I can I can hopefully hopefully when the rubber hits the road. The reality will will will will play out and and and be be as compelling as I as I believe it can be.

34:13.76
vigorbranding
Yeah, one One of the things I found with data is interpretation of it is sometimes misleading or off what I mean by that specifically is. Because we have so much data we can see what media and activities are pushing people to let’s say an online order which is great. However I think one of the problems that I’ve encountered is the shift from. Interested in a brand to purchase is only 1 part of a longer consumer journey and there’s a lot of things we do in marketing and advertising to get people from earlier in that journey which is unaware and disinterested to aware. And then building intrigue and the line to that because it doesn’t have a financial implication immediately a lot of leaders can see that as not valuable and a waste of dollars they want to see the direct line placed ad here person came to website made purchase success.

35:28.75
Richard Pennock
M.

35:30.98
vigorbranding
Um, and I think that’s been one of our challenges as an agency and me as a strategist and marketer to kind of untangle that knot and say look no no no, no what we’re doing here is to get people aware and so while getting an Instagram follower doesn’t seem like. Ah, financial win on the longer term journey. It absolutely is that is moving someone from unaware and disinterested to committing to hearing from you and wanting to be connected but it doesn’t seem. It’s valued as much by the operations and c level or your Ceo level president level people. Um, have you come up against that and how have you encouraged buy-in for efforts that don’t have an immediate transactional implication.

36:19.84
Richard Pennock
For sure and I you know I think i’ve’ve I’ve said to others in the past you know I can’t remember the last time I saw an ad for ah much anything. Let alone a restaurant where I thought I’m going to click now go purchase or even even do so in the next few days right um I had this joke with ah with an old friend. You know you know Tv remains I believe it remains the largest largest dollar spend ah certainly up there for for for advertising um and yet. Ah you know, no one’s ever. Clicked to Tv ad um and made a purchase right? and yet somehow as an industry it still persists and survives not to say that that that click to purchase doesn’t have a doesn’t have a a role to play. But I think that’s it right? I think it’s understanding I think it’s beyond able to communicate that. You know there is a there is a place for you know, clicking through trying to drive a transaction and obviously there are you know there are simple ways to to measure that and that has value. Um, but also being able to understand and sell the story of the brand more broadly. And understanding how that plays in is is critical and I think I think you know it’s ah it’s a perennial challenge right? I think you know leaders want to see want to see sales now. Um, and I think it’s something that you know frankly you just have to play out over time. Um, and you know look back at the data and and and build the case.

37:53.67
vigorbranding
Yeah, yeah.

37:53.92
Richard Pennock
Um, but it’s yeah, it’s a perennial challenge. You know we we just we live we live in this age of sort of instant satisfaction right? where we just want. We want something right now whether that’s a you know Ah but something from Amazon or ah or a sale. Um. So yeah, it’s ah it’s ah it’s a perennial challenge. That’s for sure.

38:11.76
vigorbranding
Yeah, and guiding people there and getting them to buy in is really tough a lot of it has to do too with with with what you’re marketing. Um, and we’ve we’ve come across this a number of times. It’s like you know I’m not afraid to say that some efforts that we have did not.

38:15.97
Richard Pennock
So. For sure. Okay.

38:30.30
vigorbranding
Meet the the goals and Kpis that we had set despite our best efforts and when we go back and look at it. For instance, we we unpacked in one scenario. It’s like wait, you launched a new product. Did you ever test this with people like did you ever even ask them if they wanted it and the answer was no um. And then the angle was health and then we come to find out that the caloric levels of this particular product were astronomical compared to their other products so it actually wasn’t the healthy option. It may have had an initial perception of health. But as you know I mean we have to show Calories. So It’s like boom.

38:58.40
Richard Pennock
News.

39:09.30
vigorbranding
The the caloric number was like what um you know and so there were all these other issues and yet months after operations and sea level their Ceo level leadership persisted that what we had done failed and it’s like right I mean.

39:23.73
Richard Pennock
M.

39:28.83
vigorbranding
That is technically correct. It did not work but the root of the problem was not the marketing or the messaging the root of the problem was the product that people didn’t want and you saw in even the test sales you had a bump of people that were like oh I want to try this out and then the sales dropped and so you know one of the questions I pose I was like not to be um.

39:34.64
Richard Pennock
Right.

39:48.75
vigorbranding
Inflammatory here. But if the product was built for success. Why didn’t the sales Plateau higher. Why did it go from trial to not buying again. That’s a problem So there’s there’s a lot of data that kind of data needs to be looked at.

39:53.94
Richard Pennock
Sure.

40:04.70
vigorbranding
But I think it’s conveniently overlooked sometimes because marketing is meant to be a hero and a savior when I hate to say it. But we’re not. You know we’re we’re We’re part of the team.

40:12.15
Richard Pennock
Ah, well I think and I think you know I think it goes to an interesting and interesting sort of broader point which is um in a sense collective ownership right? We each have our roles to play. But I think you know and I know Simon Sinnick and others have talked about this a lot but this.

40:24.36
vigorbranding
In f.

40:30.75
Richard Pennock
Sense of you know a safe environment right to go experiment to go fail and it’s very much kind of win together lose together and I think those are the the healthiest the healthiest environments right? Where hey it’s ah you know the campaign that you were that you were um, you were driving didn’t didn’t work for whatever. Well. Yeah, worked on some dimensions. Not others. It’s okay for us to do an honest assessment of that. Let’s figure out why? Um, maybe someone missed something we we some We all miss something that we didn’t We didn’t see go Okay, let’s go next time we go we learn we move on.

41:08.91
vigorbranding
And we iterate.

41:09.30
Richard Pennock
And and we do better and I think that that is I think that sort of healthy environment is is is critical to learning and growing because if you don’t then the temptation can be to everyone’s pointing fingers. Everyone can can transfer you’re looking to sweep it under carpet find other data. Um, that. That that defends your position. Um, and that is not a path to that is not a path to long-term success. Yeah.

41:34.21
vigorbranding
It’s yeah, it’s a very unhealthy relationship. Um all right? Well so let’s let’s shore this up and talk about a very unhealthy scenario you you have 1 final meal on this in this existence.

41:45.29
Richard Pennock
Ah, ah, this is such a tough question I mean I Oh my goodness I.

41:50.12
vigorbranding
What are you eating where are you eating and why.

42:01.70
Richard Pennock
I’m going to narrow down to maybe 3 and then I’ll narrow it down to one. So so to me I mean here’s the thing food is so much about experience right? Yes, it’s about the food. It’s about wonderful food. But it’s about it’s about the people. the context the environment um and you know the the best meals.

42:02.81
vigorbranding
I Love it.

42:19.56
Richard Pennock
Yeah, the the the food is the hard food has got to be great, but it’s ah it’s often about so much more than that and as I think back to um to my and some of the most amazing meals I’ve had um you know this is this is gonna sound very kind of. I don’t know dramatic or whatever but growing up in England we used to go down to to italy and the south of France each summer. Um, it’s not as glamorous as it sounds. it’s it’s it’s not far, not so far from from the south of England but you know we used to. We used to stay in this town called under this town called Luca. In Tuscany which is near Florence and we would often kind of go up into the hills above luca and there would be these amazing family restaurants and it really was like husband’s wife you know it would just be a terrace and they would have made fresh pasta. And amazing views. It would be ten zero p m at night kids would be running around and everything was fresh. Everything was phenomenal. There’s one I I was trying to remember I think it’s called il vipore. Um, and here’s the thing I don’t even remember I mean the food was great at the time it was by no means you know Miche last starred food. But it was that whole kind of ambiance and experience that sort of italian summer evening and it was just magical so that that might be 1 um, similarly when we used to go in South of France we would drive down and occasionally we would stop at an amazing restaurant. There was one called the georges bla which I think is a misla starred restaurant. And I remember the food was phenomenal but I appreciate it at the time that I didn’t fully appreciate it. So um I kind of maybe go back there? Um, and then closer to home here in Austin there’s a phenomenal restaurant called uchi it’s a sushi restaurant. Um. Which is kind of weird because Austin’s not close to not particularly close to the ocean. Um, but the food and the ambiance there is just amazing and I’ve had some wonderful meals there with my wife and and with my family. Um, so maybe it depends how I’m feeling. As that final meal approaches but 1 of those 3 to give you ah to give you a more long-winded answer.

44:23.87
vigorbranding
I Love It. No, That’s great I mean and some of those meals are just um I think you said magical I Think that’s the right? The right word You know one thing I Really wish would come back is a reclamation of. Old guard standards and what I mean by that is I’m gonna gonna throw it back to England which sometimes gets knocked for its cuisine. Beef Wellington is Fantastic. It is an amazing dish and I feel like it’s been relegated as old guard. Not interesting Yada yada.

44:54.59
Richard Pennock
Ah, ah.

45:03.71
vigorbranding
But when you have a fantastic beef wellington with a solid cider. It is just like ah it’s not my final meal but it’s great.

45:06.15
Richard Pennock
Um, well and it’s much like that that but but it’s much like those Italian experiences right? like it’s not complicated and doesn’t need to be complicated, but it’s about phenomenal ingredients. Um sort of produced.

45:18.18
vigorbranding
That’s right.

45:22.77
Richard Pennock
You know with year just years and years of experience and just being able to kind of refine it and perfect it. Um, and you can you can taste it and it’s just it’s magical. Yeah yeah.

45:33.52
vigorbranding
That’s right, That’s right, Yeah, a little bit of love and ah, not trying to show off and just letting the ingredients do what the ingredients do fresh herbs. Anybody who wants to get better in the kitchen throw away the dry herbs.

45:38.20
Richard Pennock
Yes, let I’m saying yeah.

45:48.60
vigorbranding
Go get fresh herbs. It really makes a difference Trust me Anyway, hey thanks for spending so much time with us and all of your insights. It’s just amazing. We could probably do a few more of these episodes but I appreciate it and thanks for coming on.

45:48.82
Richard Pennock
It certainly does.

46:01.39
Richard Pennock
Fantastic. Well thank you I Appreciate the opportunity to be on the ah on the podcast.

46:06.19
vigorbranding
Excellent.