00:00.00

vigorbranding

Well hello today’s guest is someone at the forefront of restaurant design. His name is Ben Kaa I probably pronounced it wrong even though I practice and he’s the founder and chief experience officer at design the what’s amazing is every 8 hours a new live design restaurant opens somewhere in the world.

00:07.00

Ben

Are.

00:19.87

vigorbranding

Every 8 hours a new live at design restaurant opens somewhere in the world. It’s amazing which means he’s a pretty busy guy I think he traveled as much as any human being on earth and anyway so Benjamin welcome. Thank you so much for joining us I’m fascinated by what you do and your story.

00:24.68

Ben

If that.

00:36.43

Ben

Thanks Michael thanks for having me um I can I can maybe start with an anecdote. My daughter has an app that tracks my flights and she said hey dad. You know that you flew from the earth to the moon last year

00:47.81

vigorbranding

Wow, that’s right’s right? and your back probably hurts. You know I did 2 cities you know I was I started in in New York City yesterday afternoon I went to Atlanta for the.

00:50.10

Ben

And then I said yeah honey. But next year I have to fly back.

00:57.81

Ben

The.

01:06.23

vigorbranding

The rest of the day flew back to Harrisburg waiting day and I thought I did something which was ah nothing compared to what you’re doing there so but anyway, ah, but but but through your travels. Not only do you do brilliant work that I was able to witness some in person with you.

01:16.81

Ben

Um, yeah, are.

01:21.00

vigorbranding

Ah, but we get to see and learn about a lot. What’s going on in the world. So just first of all, tell us a little bit about live it design. You know how you started about you the whole beginnings.

01:32.40

Ben

Yeah, absolutely so I’m an architect by trade and started this company 98 which is what twenty seven years ago or something and always with the intention of becoming a 1 ne-stop shop for everything f and b um, it’s a strange company I would say I haven’t seen anything like it where we have. Chefs and operators and kitchen designers and equipment consultants but also architects and engineers and we have deejs and uniform designers. So. It’s really, ah, you know, really a 1 ne-stop shop for for anything and everything restaurant related and um, you know we maybe for the first you know. Five or six years we were mostly in Europe and then we’ve grown internationally we’re now in 45 countries. The us is our biggest market. Obviously it’s where we have most you know multi-unit restaurants. And that’s our focus we work a lot with private equity. We work a lot with you know the world’s biggest brands so sort of scalability and profitability are almost more important than you know collars and fabrics if you will.

02:32.45

vigorbranding

That’s great. That’s great and and you know it’s it’s cool because again some of the stuff and the style and design that you bring forth is is absolutely beautiful. But then you said it, you’re working with a lot of these large brands and I don’t think people might necessarily. I don’t know attach great architectural design to to the likes of like Starbucks Pizza Hut Taco Bell burger king things like that. But you work with all of them and then I think when people really do focus. They can see what the design is and and how you’re bringing that forth and how you’re making everything much more operationally savvy you want to talk a little bit about that.

03:04.61

Ben

Yeah I mean probably there’s not a single person in the western world that hasn’t eaten at 1 of our designs and it’s as you say it’s everything from Starbucks to Ritz culture right? and I think. Often as you say design or highqual design is attached to the risk alters of this world right? Ah, but it’s equally important in any fast cache when any qsr I believe that one of the the biggest differences between what we do and and a regular design firm is that you know the actual front of the house. It’s.

03:35.24

vigorbranding

Then.

03:35.38

Ben

Easy part. That’s the fun part. The the mood boards. The pinterest anyone can do that. What is really challenging especially in in scalable brands is understanding the operations. You know how do you make sure that you create designs that work that are profitable that minimize labor. All those things. Are often overlooked at from a design perspective and I think that’s really where design really matters not only in the look and feel of things. But how the engine really runs and works and that’s why I think it’s so important that designers understand the business from the inside.

04:14.00

vigorbranding

Um, that’s that’s great. What’s the 1 thing you think every great restaurant design has in common.

04:20.20

Ben

Um, well um I think touches to touch the emotions of the guest. Um, you know we are constantly bombarded by experiences and social media etc and you know when something really touches you close. That’s that’s magic and I think that’s. The beauty of our industry right? hospitality that we get to touch. Ah, people’s lives and their experiences and their celebrations. Um, so so that’s something really important and there’s not a magic wand to do that. It’s like oh create a restroom design that you know touches people’s hearts. It’s.

04:37.20

vigorbranding

Man.

04:55.40

Ben

It’s a combination of so many things and design is one of those components but it could be the scent. It could be the sound. It could be the the thickness of the menu. There’s so many small details in creating that holistic experience that is unique. Um, so you really need to work on I Always say that the designer or a good designer should be like the spider in the web you you change something in the operations and it will affect the guest experience you change you create a Wow moment on the customer Journey. It will affect the culinary side. So. There’s a lot of things and moving parts in a good restroom design and that’s really what I do think that you know great restroom designs have in common that there’s a red thread. You know, along all these things that you know make that cohesive. Fantastic experience.

05:45.15

vigorbranding

It’s brilliant and ah you know you’re you’re you’re a man after my heart I mean ah we do branding we do advertising and marketing for restaurants we our job is to drive people to that front door right? And. We always talk about the consumer journey. We talk about the experience what they’re hearing what they’re seeing what they’re feeling ah the the emotion that we can bring forth and I think when when sometimes when we talk about this stuff. People think it’s all just sort of like ah maybe marketing propaganda but it truly is all about that that experience from the from the sofa. To the seat in the restaurant right? and I love you know again, whether it’s whether it’s a burger King or a Ritz-carlton I love how you sweat the details and I think um I’ve I’ve heard you speak and I’ve seen some of the different lectures you’ve given and. I know like covid ah obviously was a huge game changer in a lot of things that we’ve done. It kept us at home and but you’re seeing um, experience come back right? You’re seeing that physical experience becoming much more important.

06:46.64

Ben

Yeah I mean we have I think the advantage of you know as you said in the beginning we open roughly a thousand restaurants every year right all over the world. So we can. Not that we have the crystal ball but we sort of see trends and understand what’s happening in Asia -pacific what’s happening in australia what’s happening in the middle east in the europe in the us etc and 1 1 thing that we’ve seen is a polarization of the industry and I’ll try to explain it. So either you play on the convenience side of things. I want it here I want it now. Um you know I go online and I want it send to wherever I am in less than 50 minutes or you play in the experience side to your point about what do we need to create from an experiential side for people to leave their netflix and their sofa and really go out and have an experience and.

07:34.83

vigorbranding

Um.

07:35.45

Ben

Consumers are getting picky. You know you go out less and therefore the Bland experiences right? The the um the legacy American brands is a great example like you know trying to be everything to everyone. Those are the brands that are really really suffering.

07:46.78

vigorbranding

Move.

07:53.69

Ben

You know, really now you need to be niche. You need to create a phenomenal experience. You need to be a driver or you play completely in the opposite you know, ah spectrum and just play on convenience and speed etc and that’s something that we’re seeing Globally you know the trends used to be more regional if you will or or you know continental.

08:06.45

vigorbranding

Who.

08:12.54

Ben

Now Trends are really global and that’s something that we’re really seeing Overall so to your point you know, not only driving their guest to the experience but making sure you deliver on that experience is what keeps people coming back.

08:23.46

vigorbranding

Yeah that’s great. You know it’s funny I was just as I said traveling and I was in an airport somewhere us and I wanted to grab something very quick to eat and get some coffee so this was actually yesterday morning I ran into this diner. Ah, they had a menu that was a Qr code. Fantastic no problem I do that so order my food I went through this whole thing and it was kind of like a pain I just wanted to order some eggs and it was breakfast but I did it I did it no problem I don’t want the thirty drinks they tried to offer me I didn’t want ah of 30 different cocktails. They tried to offer me was like to get through the thing they wanted a tip I’m like.

08:51.13

Ben

Are.

08:58.85

vigorbranding

I thought I was supposed to tipple in the service I haven’t met a person yet I haven’t seen anything I haven’t gotten food and nothing but I actually had to program my tip and and pay with a credit card before anything showed up I think sometimes some of the automation can go a little too far. That’s my opinion I mean I think we lose some of the personal touch and the experience and and all that. But anyway.

09:00.29

Ben

Are.

09:16.31

vigorbranding

I Just thought I just thought that was ah like a weird kind of experience.

09:18.38

Ben

I think I think we’re all. It’s a very US thing you know I was in Vegas the other day and like I grab a can of coke from the fridge I bring it to the counter I say I want to pay and they flip the screen and say tip you know.

09:28.49

vigorbranding

I mean.

09:33.93

vigorbranding

Um, yeah, yeah, right? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

09:34.88

Ben

It was like 1824 28% is like ah what this this is convenience store. Um, but I do think that you know one of the one of the things that sometimes operators are getting wrong is that technology and efficiency should be a means to. Ah, make hospitality better. Make sure that your employees can actually focus on what people are doing better than than machines rather than take out the hospitality of it. So I think.

09:56.70

vigorbranding

Who the customer. Yeah no.

10:08.63

Ben

You know I often get the question because I speak a lot about robotics and innovation and trends in terms of you know what? the future of the industry is and they say well you know we’re going to you know, ah get ah, get out of jobs and you know hospital is going to die yes on the contrary.

10:22.64

vigorbranding

1

10:24.55

Ben

You know, rather than you know, being in the back of the house in a fridge doing inventory. Why don’t you go out and talk to your guests you know and and give them a smile and you know ask how the day was. That’s true hospitality and let a machine just manage your inventory. You don’t need to sit there with an excel file and do that.

10:43.28

vigorbranding

Yeah I mean it’s amazing. You know in 1 of your presentations I saw it I I might get the name of the company wrong. But I can describe what it was I think it’s called each and it was ah it looked like I mean basically the back of the restaurant looked like a manufacturing facility with no people in it. Is that the the computerized system that can like learn the menu items and actually make it and clean itself is that the does I get that right.

11:03.78

Ben

Yeah, yeah, so you know we’re now part of some of the world’s biggest projects I guess you’ve heard of the line this you know 170 kiilometer long building built. Yeah so we’re we’re designing some of the f and b there and and sort of understanding the future. There’s now.

11:13.57

vigorbranding

Ah, we got to talk about that. It’s incredible. It’s ah.

11:21.90

Ben

You know pieces of equipment that can do up to 15000 dishes per day individual dishes so they can remember you know your Michael your your flavor profile you know? Ah, um, your spiciness levels etc. You know attach a cure code to that specific dish and have it served and they can self-clean themselves. You know.

11:26.85

vigorbranding

Um, it’s incredible.

11:41.50

Ben

The evolution of technology is just amazing specifically if you go to China I think yeah China is sort of for the western world sort of a black box. We’ve had you know office in in Shanghai for many many years and done business there for many of the world’s global brand and. That’s really where I see the innovation happening in terms of you know, not only development of equipment but embracing of technology in the actual operations I think in in in the west or you know, specifically in the us we just scratched the surface on what. You know the future is bringing in terms of automation innovation and also quality and consistency. You know there’s certain things that machines are really really good at is that making things over and over again repetitive tasks doing them perfectly right? And that’s tough for humans.

12:25.55

vigorbranding

Um, right? Yeah I know I know I have a very poor golf swing and I know that a simulated golf swing is way better than mine will ever be. So I mean there’s just certain repetitive things and to your point precision that a machine will be better At. And I know like I’ll offend the artists out there that are chefs and everything I don’t I don’t mean to offend but I mean it’s just I was blown away by that machine and and and with the capability of what it was able to do really remarkable.

12:50.87

Ben

Yeah, and I think it goes beyond that if we we could you know we we sort of put this in Silos right? There’s there’s equipment in the back of the house and I always say oh people talk about robots to me. The dishwasher is the best robot out there right? The only thing is now.

13:04.21

vigorbranding

Are.

13:07.57

Ben

<unk>s dishwasers with a yeah that recognize the different dishes then they take it out of the dishwasher and put it on on a shelf to dry. You know the whole automation process and nobody needs to be a dishwasher anymore and I doubt that nobody wants to be a dishwasher It’s just a way of starting right. But the same goes with with all the other things that you know if you think of music right? You know, um as you know and we can talk about later. We have our own restaurant innovation labs that we use to test things spotify uses them to understand the the impact of music behavior on guest.

13:24.19

vigorbranding

Ah.

13:32.13

vigorbranding

Yeah.

13:39.38

Ben

So you can actually automate. You know the music in the restaurants to change human behavior in terms of you want them to stay longer. Do you want them to stay shorter. You want to upsell, certain products, etc, etc. And that’s all automated right? and that could be connected to how many people you have in the store in real-time. Etc. Another thing is sent. You can change the different scents in the restaurant and depending on what cent you have you sell 1 product or the other all these things that influence human behavior and you know restaurant guest behavior happen without you as a guest noticing it but also without the interaction of anyone in the restaurant.

14:14.45

vigorbranding

Right.

14:16.62

Ben

And that’s what we see more and more right? How can some of these processes that traditionally have been managed by the restaurant manager or the agm or the team members. How can we offload those from their sort of day-to-day task and make sure that somebody centralized or or an ai engine does that. Better than they do so they can once again focus on the hospitality component of things.

14:38.67

vigorbranding

Yeah, it’s incredible I mean I saw one of your examples in the generative Ai where people that come into the restaurant would affect what would be on the walls like what they’re seeing and and and all that just it’s just incredible and it makes it makes an awful lot of sense as far as that whole immersive experience How you can really kind of make things. Ah. Personal fun, interesting. Always new it just it’s truly fascinating and speaking of you brought it up and I definitely want to hit that. Can you talk about the line that that blew my mind I mean and what is your role in that I know it’s got to be in the architecturally design. Ah as far as restaurants.

15:08.10

Ben

Um, and.

15:16.12

vigorbranding

Talk about the whole thing. It’s it’s crazy.

15:18.79

Ben

Yeah, yeah, I’m actually flying there. You know the day after tomorrow. So yeah, it’s it’s basically um, building a country right? It’s in Saudi Arabia and by the red sea. It’s a beautiful beautiful location it’s amazing it’s pristine um, I’ve been driving those beaches is just like fantastic right? You can compete with the maldates. Um, and you know it’s building if if we were to build a country or a city with everything we know and everything that we project. What would it be right. So basically the idea is you take a whole city and you put in 1 building and leave 98% of the land untouched and you know you create community living where you know you have everything you need within a 5 minute walk

15:50.83

vigorbranding

Right.

15:59.24

Ben

So It’s really turning everything upside down and we’re helping with the F and B strategy on you know what does f and B strategy look like in the future. Um, it all started with our restroom Labs. We have you know sort of developed um a cross-trained de-skilled operating model. Where young team members can come in and and work without previous experience but deliver on a high note in a fine- dining environment and we started you know, building hotels and FAndBOutlets for Neome the different Neome regions right? Neum have several regions. Um, and that’s where we started you know working more and more into this different giga projects. You know there’s a lot going on that I cannot tell you because it’s sort of under Nda in the future. But what I can tell you it’s mind-blowing and the resources being poured into it is are phenomenal. It’s you know. You go there. It’s the best of the best whether that’s recycling energy water waste. It’s really a privilege to be part of of that environment.

16:58.28

vigorbranding

It’s crazy I do remember this was a big high long mirror building and just it was fascinating. Absolutely remarkable.

17:03.26

Ben

Um, yeah I mean it’s the height of the empire state building two hundred meter wide you can have a football stadium up there three hundred meters up in the year and one hundred and seventy miles and kilometers long it will be built in faces. Of course it’s not being built all. But.

17:13.21

vigorbranding

Um.

17:16.21

vigorbranding

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

17:20.50

Ben

But you know face 1 is two point four kilometers so and you know a cruise ship. Can you know, go through it. It’s just you know, really really exciting to be part of it. Yeah yeah, exactly exactly.

17:25.96

vigorbranding

Yeah, well they say Rome wasn’t built in a debt. You can’t build a whole country right? I mean so it’s going to take some time like that makes sense.

17:34.23

Ben

So and and you speak like you know you speak to Dubai and it was the same like we tried things. We tried the islands we tried the palm. We tried the second Paul we tried the Bush Cahalifa you know it. It requires a lot of vision to be able to move like a country like Dubai that doesn’t have a lot of natural resources to become a word-class you know touristist nation.

17:37.46

vigorbranding

Moon.

17:53.75

Ben

So there’s a vision behind it and it’s going to take time.

17:54.10

vigorbranding

Yeah,, that’s fantastic. All right? So I’ll bring it back into more I’ll say maybe a more Americanized Pedestrian Baseline issues. So and and you know this is something that I’ll say we as ah as a company will struggle with because. Look the restaurants they’ve they’ve had tough times they’ve struggled all right? So There’s a lot of tired restaurants out there. There’s a lot of restaurants that can use a makeover or refresh but it costs money right? and they’re just worried about turnover they want to get butts and seats they want to make you know what’s their daily check and all that kind of thing you know we know you know I know the design marketing advertising. All that stuff refreshing The the the experience will make them money. But how do you convince? a restaurant owner to take that leap.

18:38.30

Ben

Well, you know when we work with with global brands I Always say the same Um, you know Restroom design is an investment is not a cost right? And um, what we always try is to you know, make sure that we make a proof of concept. What we call an Alpha Prototype or Beta. Before actually rolling it out whether that’s corporate stores or franchises stores so you can really measure things right because to your point we could go to a conference and present a beautiful new design and say oh this is going to be great for your sales all right? What’s that right? So What we always try to do is make sure that we’re not only delivering on the high quality of the design.

19:07.19

vigorbranding

Um.

19:13.74

Ben

But also saying look these are the numbers. This is the increase of footfall this is the increase of you know intent to return. This is the increase of intent to recommend. There’s certain part of that that we could do upfront now we do you know? gen ai we have Oculos glasses we have immersive experiences and focus groups, etc, etc. But ultimately the proof is in the pudding so that would be my recommendation really, you know, making sure that for example, when we do a remodel make sure that you take a store that is an existing store rather than create a new design and and and a new build because then you can really measure the pre and post but always talk.

19:44.99

vigorbranding

Correct.

19:50.40

Ben

About design or marketing as an investment not about a cost.

19:51.78

vigorbranding

Always right? and it truly is I said a lot of people look at this is like a paying taxes. You know you have to do it. You don’t want to do it. But it’s It’s truly if it’s not getting your return. You shouldn’t do it. So I mean that’s that’s really the bottom line there. What do you think? what? what are most restaurants do wrong when they when they when it comes to design.

20:03.93

Ben

Um, yeah.

20:10.78

Ben

Um I think in general and I’ve talked to the us I guess most of your audience is us based um one of the things that we see especially coming from Asia or from Europe is you know real estate has been extremely expensive outside of the us land used to be cheap in the Us.

20:14.40

vigorbranding

Me.

20:27.14

Ben

Ah, labor you know I live in Sweden it’s twenty Eight bucks minimum wage. It’s sort of like when people are complaining about 50 or 20 in the us like I keep it keep them coming send them over I’ll sign them up. Um, so not that we come from the future but we have been exposed to these challenges before in terms of inflation high labor.

20:30.14

vigorbranding

I for compared? Yeah yeah.

20:47.70

Ben

Ah, lack of skill labor. You know capex increasest etc so a couple of things you know, First of all the understanding of efficiency in a footprint. That’s 1 thing that we see a lot in the us humongous kitchens you know kitchens where you know ah 40% of the restroom footprint is back of the house.

21:00.15

vigorbranding

Um, you know.

21:06.65

Ben

You know that is only cost doesn’t generate any revenue. How do you make sure that you get back to a 25% back of the house versus 40 so the back of the house. Um, operating model is something that is often not seen by designers. So. It’s like a black box. You know? Okay, we’ll design a front of the house and then somebody. Ah, maybe even a kitchen consultant. You know comes in and you know guess what their job is to sell you equipment. So you’re going to end up with a ferrari off a kitchen with a lot of space and a lot of equipment. Well, you don’t make money there you make money in the front of the house. So that’s 1 thing. The second thing is the.

21:30.26

vigorbranding

Right.

21:36.56

vigorbranding

Right.

21:43.11

Ben

Um, Availability of cheap labor right? You know a lot of tip-grade states etc so there has been really an incentive to um work from an efficiency perspective in the restaurant environment whether that’s layout. You know how many steps you take.

21:55.88

vigorbranding

And.

21:57.78

Ben

You know, ah time in motion. So there’s a lot of time motion study done in the back of the house but not a lot to the front of the houses you know where are the station’s position. All those things that they think oh, it’s not important. Well it’s 10 seconds here 20 seconds there you know you go back and punch it into the pos. You don’t have handhelds so the whole. Um. Efficiency component that we’ve seen overseas is something that we’re finally now you know, being able to bring to the us because labor scars you know and salaries are going up, Etc, etc. So um, it’s it’s not reinventing the wheel. What I do think that we can do is we can take best practices and global learnings and actually apply them to the us rather to than to have to invent everything from scratch.

22:40.83

vigorbranding

That’s great. Yeah, and you you bring a global perspective to all this which is really ah, it’s an incredible ah advantage candidly. So So talk about talk about your lab a little bit I mean in my company. Anybody you talk to that works in in our agencies. They know our core values are respect. Innovation and passion. You got to be excited about what you do and innovation is is one of core values. We. We’re always coming up with new ideas talk about the lab because I think that’s a brilliant concept.

23:06.20

Ben

Yeah, well yeah, it’s it’s a fun story right? You know one of the talent we work with the world’s biggest brands right? and when you know I remember back in the days we were talking about Ai and automation. They said hey hey then slow down we are implementing wi-fi like. Okay, okay now I know where where I have to put the threshold. Um, it was sort of hard to push these global brands to really innovate. So we came up with the idea to say why don’t we put our money where our mouth is why don’t we set up a restaurant that we can use as a lab.

23:40.93

vigorbranding

No no.

23:42.98

Ben

And rather than become the traditional consultant where you come and say oh you should do this or I believe you should do that we could actually come and say look. We’ll try this and these are the results. This worked this didn’t work right? So we become peers instead of consultants. So we said let’s open up a restaurant. We decided to open it up in Stockholm you know second highest. Ah, labor market in the world. So you know either, you’re efficient or you die we decided to only hire people that have never worked in a restaurant right? to make sure that the efficiency was in the model in the equipment in the layout etc and then really pack this with all sorts of sensors that and you can imagine.

24:04.50

vigorbranding

Yeah, exactly you go broke. Um, first.

24:21.56

Ben

But everything happens without the guest knowing so the guests don’t know this is a lab um and not only was it extremely successful from a learning perspective in terms of you know the initial objectives what we did not expect is that we were going to make so much money. Actually becoming operators. So what was 1 restaurant became 3 sore the 3 biggest citizens of Sweden we started franticing a year ago we’re now in 10 countries. We’re going into the us now. So it’s really becoming a global brand. We get 73 sites in the pipeline.

24:36.96

vigorbranding

Hidden.

24:48.36

vigorbranding

It’s awesome.

24:52.90

Ben

So now I have to balance out the the you know design consultant hat and the operator hat but it also it’s a great way of testing things in different markets. You know we are in Saudi Arabia and we’re opening in Mexico and Buenosiris and we were in madrid and we’re in Belgium and we’re now opening in Nashville. So.

24:56.88

vigorbranding

Ah, yeah.

25:05.10

vigorbranding

Um.

25:08.80

Ben

You know, understanding how those different Technologies Components efficiencies operate in different markets. It’s very very valuable for us beside you know the fact that we’re building our own global brand which is extremely fun.

25:21.90

vigorbranding

Yeah, well you better be careful, you might have a conflict. You’ll be like building me oh we’re across the street from you guys in Madrid you’ll lose the ah opportunity to redesign him. Yeah, that’s fantastic. That’s so cool I love it.

25:30.44

Ben

Ah, we’ll invite you. We’ll invite you to come over. Don’t worry.

25:38.40

vigorbranding

So when it comes to those big ah chains who’s doing a good job like who who ah pick on American Brand If you wouldn’t mind.

25:45.54

Ben

Um, I mean this, there’s quite a few and and in different ways I would say you know I think um, you know in the us I’m a big fan of Bartacco. Um, the way they not only create experience embrace technology or very early with you know, tech adoption I think they great did a great job in delivering the experience I believe there their sort of model is a day at the beach you work into the restaurant and it’s really it transports you somewhere you know to to.

25:58.17

vigorbranding

Um.

26:17.16

Ben

You know a cardboard whatever that is um but also from a you know training perspective I like both the but back of the house and and the front of the house guest experience. That’s a brand that I really like um I think you know and pizza. We did a great job with them and they had a great run and you know.

26:18.95

vigorbranding

Um.

26:31.56

vigorbranding

Um, okay.

26:35.63

Ben

Unfortunately very leveraged so when interest rates go up. They’re having a harder time. Um, it’s not an american brand but 1 of my favorites. It’s Jo the jews you’ll see it in some of the american cities extraordinary way of turning.

26:46.76

vigorbranding

Um.

26:50.58

Ben

A potentially boring job like serving coffee and juices into being something really really cool. You know and they hire these good looking guys now they have women as well because they’ve gone too big but they really said you know they did something that nobody else had done before. Their capex is extremely low. You know both in terms of equipment and the fphony and they really deliver on a great great experience and I think from a marketing perspective. Undoubtedly they they do something really really interesting. So for for the those listening that haven’t seen it is one of my to go brands for a number of reasons both from operational simplicity efficiency. You know can run one of those those restaurants with 2 team members. Um and delivering a really good experience whether that’s a kiosk in an airport. Or an extra large dining room with full service and they’ve been able to capture you know coffee juices and food in 1 which is something that Starbucks has struggled with for years and I can go on and on but you know yeah, ah.

27:50.75

vigorbranding

That’s that’s awesome. So yeah, you know believe me this good this this Well I could talk to you for hours I am just absolutely I Love what I’ve seen Love what I hear it’s ah it’s just so easy to ignore. Ah good design. Ah, whether it’s you know the the actual architectural design whether it’s the design of the of the brand. It’s so easy to it’s not well. It’s easy to ignore it. But boy you know it when you see it and I think that’s the thing. It’s kind of one of those things you really know it when you see it and when you feel it and that’s that’s what’s going to be successful, especially with people wanting to go back to that experience. So who what’s what’s up What if you can be honest, What’s ah, what’s a larger you know company. That’s not doing a great job in your opinion.

28:32.35

Ben

Well I think if if I go back to my comment people 4 about the brands that tried to be everything to everyone. You know, think of all the legacy bar and grill brands in the us you know there’s a bunch of them. Um, you know, just adding menu items adding menu items. Ah.

28:44.92

vigorbranding

Um.

28:49.21

Ben

Try to be lunch dinner. All locations. Um, you know their audience is literally dying right? Its you know you you don’t see any young people going in there I think that’s really a struggle in a world that is coming more and more specialized more and more on a occasion based. Um, those brand really need to rethink I read that you know Tgi Fridays was actually just sold last week to one of their Uk franchisees. You know that whole category is is a category that’s really suffering and that really need to you know, take care of their guest experience.

29:10.99

vigorbranding

From.

29:23.44

Ben

And Beyond that who are they you know it’s It’s been. It’s lost their soul a little bit so there’s a lot of work to be done there but they have a scale and an audience that also you know make it possible to make them come to life again.

29:23.87

vigorbranding

Right.

29:38.45

vigorbranding

That’s that’s great. That’s a really good insight all right? So we’ll play I’m gonna play like a little game here’s like what’s worse and I don’t think there’s any good answers here. So but it’d be. It’d be great just to hear you you fill in the gaps here as far as ah, your your points of view on these.

29:42.96

Ben

Yeah, quick tip. Ah.

29:49.78

Ben

And.

29:49.90

vigorbranding

So so what is worse lots of cluttered I relevantt decorations speaking of I’ll say Fridays I shouldn’t say that but I I will or a bad floor plan. Yeah.

29:58.99

Ben

A bad flowprint all day long. Yeah I think the bad flow Brand will impact on your pnl. Um, you know you’re going. Ah, you’re going to. You know have a higher labor cost, etc. And. Um, you know you know it’s going to impact on the guest experience. So Um I will go with that.

30:13.91

vigorbranding

All right, all right? What’s worse an exposed service area or bathroom doors that only open in.

30:20.49

Ben

Exposed service area I think the the bathroom doors that only open in it’s something that you can live with it might be annoying but when you’re having your your dinner experience and see the service area and they are never pretty. That’s something that you’ll remember.

30:34.20

vigorbranding

Yeah, yeah, especially if they’re busy right.

30:39.89

Ben

I’ve I’ve never seen a guest get back and get back to me say you know what? hey Michael I went to this restaurant and the bathroom doors opened inwards I’ll not never come back again. You know.

30:47.98

vigorbranding

Ah, but they will see the mess that’s in the service area that’s for sure all right? What’s worse bad lighting or bad carpeting.

30:55.12

Ben

A bad lighting all day long I’m a lighting freak I think lighting and acoustics are the 2 things that designers often overlook and they’re not well taught and in design schools and when you do value engineering.

31:09.51

vigorbranding

Um.

31:12.37

Ben

Is the first thing people cut because you don’t see it on the on the layouts. You don’t see it on the renderings but I would go with bed lighting all day long.

31:15.17

vigorbranding

Yeah, it’s right? That’s great and if you have good lighting then you will be able see the bad carpet without the good lighting. You know you get the carpet you can get away with it. So all right? What’s worse low grade tables and shares or poor menu design.

31:32.53

Ben

Ah, low grade tables I would go I think it’s you know and I’ll connect it to the to the carpet comment before the things you touch the cutlery the table the chair the the glass where the plate where those are the most important things.

31:38.10

vigorbranding

So.

31:49.27

Ben

What’s on the floor. What’s on the ceiling. What’s on the walls is not as important. So if what you touch is Conveys The the sense of quality. Um, that’s really very very important to me.

31:58.92

vigorbranding

Um, all right? So a few years ago ah you talked about we talked about so everything’s Instagram right? Everything’s taking pictures and all all the social media but you talked about the most instagramed restrooms talking about the doors in the United States talk about what made the bathroom so photogenic.

32:18.90

Ben

Yeah, so so we actually opened one of our labs in in Los Angeles bad timing November Twenty nineteen so it’s not there anymore, but we were gaining one Instagram follower per second when we opened. Um. We won the best restaurantroom design of the year award voted by consumers by edola and the second best bar in America and what we did um is that we really wanted to create ah just an amazing restaurant restroom experience. So we you know bought this. Onyx handsinks that were lit from from underneath and it had like 40 candles under the mirror and you know greenery and art. You know, really expensive art in the restroom and what really made the difference is that on the mirror and I hope. I’m not going too far politically correct. It said you look fucking beautiful and there wasn’t a person going into that restroom that did not take a picture of you look fucking, beautiful and shared it in social media. So not a recipe for every brand.

33:11.46

vigorbranding

Um, that’s right, That’s fantastic. That’s great. Yeah.

33:25.83

Ben

But ah, you know, just just make sure you create something memorable and don’t underestimate the power of restrooms because when you have a clean, well lit nicely designed restroom that smells great that has you know a really good soap. That really you know makes an impression on what you think the kitchen’s going to be and what you think the rest of the experience going to be.

33:48.84

vigorbranding

That’s great I need one of those those mirrors because I need all positive reinforcement I can get you know and you know it’s funny. You say that but I will say you know the the the hermitage ah hotel in Nashville downstairs next to the bar. The restroom is incredible. And I remember that and I’m not. You know that’s something I will always remember it doesn’t have anything that gives me any positive reinforcement but it was just incredible. Fact there was a sign outside it said ladies knock before coming in to take pictures which I was like why would that be here and I went inside I was like amazing, absolutely amazing. So. Anyway I think a good bathroom’s fantastic and it’s ah it’s important. So what? What’s the future look like for restaurant design I mean what’s trending what? what? what might might meet that what might we start seeing more often.

34:36.61

Ben

So when it comes to russian design and again maybe I’m not the prototypical designers only thinking of you know the fabrics and the colors and the textures it’s it’s really operational efficiency to me. Um, both in the back of the house and the front of the house. That’s really coming big time. It comes to sensors implementation of technology friction less ordering, etc etc. So that’s something that we’ll see and I can talk for hours about bad efficiency parts specifically in the back of the house etc. The second part that we are going to see is a lot more. Um, artificial intelligence coming in. You know at livid we have now you know a 5 team strong Ai team just because Ai it’s going to be better than humans at a lot of the repetitives that task right? You know whether that’s comp set analysis restaurant layouts you know optimization of spaces etc so there’s a lot of that.

35:22.61

vigorbranding

Um.

35:30.42

Ben

That’s coming into the design space. Ah, but um, there’s a lot of talk about those things but I do think that you know where we started this conversation in terms of the experience the human touch. That’s really going to. Be here for a while you know machines will not be able to do those things for us at least in the foreseeable future. So I think we need to be aware of the tools that we can use as designers but really make sure. To understand where do we add value like like we were saying in terms of understanding trends in 1 market into the other etc etc. That’s something that we see the other I trend that I’m going to see and I’m going to speak specifically to the us is offshoring so you know since the pandemic. Capex construction costs are up what thirty forty percent there depending on states. Um, it’s really becoming hard to get the return of investment capital with the capex that restaurants are now running at it’s really are you know you can make the p and l work. But how are you know you know, get that that investment back. So.

36:19.57

vigorbranding

The money.

36:37.84

Ben

1 thing that we’re doing for mini brands is actually almost building the restaurants offsite. So this la restaurant that I mentioned you know we bidded it out in California bids came in between 3.4 3 point $2000000 we ended up building it for one point 3

36:49.54

vigorbranding

But.

36:53.81

Ben

So basically we bought all the pieces from China we bought them from Europe we assembled the restaurant in a warehouse in Spain we shipped it to la we sent an install crew and the rest was up and running in seventeen days that sort of brands becoming.

37:00.17

vigorbranding

Wow.

37:11.22

Ben

Um, sourcing companies and you know installation companies. We’re now working with you know, quite a few large Us chains in making modular designs and concepts overseas right? You might do it in Mexico you might do it in China you might do it in Eastern Europe just to make sure that if there’s a tariff coming in 1 country you will have you know a plan b but that’s something that we’re going to see more and more because the increase of labor and the increase of construction cost is hitting the us market really really strong.

37:43.70

vigorbranding

It’s incredible and I mean it’s amazing that you can actually build it ship it assemble it cheaper than you can build it on site That’s ah, that’s that’s a shame actually.

37:49.80

Ben

Yeah, plus the fact that hey I’m half swedish so we have Ikea in our blood but but the fact that you’re never going to get the quality that you get in a factory in a nice environment. You know where you work in.

37:56.75

vigorbranding

Ah, of course of course.

38:05.42

Ben

You know a restaurant environment with local workers that have never done that brand or that assembly before they have to learn every time. So just that scalability this you know is not as easy for 1 ne-off concept or for small brand. But if you are starting to get regional I Always say you know if you. If your ambition is to get beyond 10 or 15 Brands. You should really start looking at it.

38:23.71

vigorbranding

Yeah, totally makes sense and you know it’s funny. You brought up Ikea I wasn’t going to bring that up I was going to try to avoid this whole conversation. But it is in a weird sort of way. It’s a microcosm of like what we’re talking about and what you do I mean right? The design was impeccable. The user experience second to none and I’m going back to like 19

38:28.40

Ben

Me.

38:41.94

vigorbranding

I don’t know 80 when I first was exposed to it I walked in to a store. It’s like this is just brilliant. Everything about it was brilliant I wanted I wanted to buy everything there I wanted to buy the expensive stuff. Nothing was super expensive I wanted to buy the the inexpensive I needed I all of a sudden needed things I never know I knew I needed just because the design was so impeccable and then of course.

38:48.29

Ben

Um.

38:50.67

Ben

Oh.

38:58.49

Ben

Count.

39:01.90

vigorbranding

The the user experience as you walk through and the layout and the way they showed everything comes back to design and experience and um.

39:03.50

Ben

And we’ve actually just been engaged to I think we’re already delivered it the the future f and b experience of Ikea globally we’ve done it that limitd so there’s we’re we’re closing the circle.

39:14.53

vigorbranding

Fantastic. That’s awesome, Very Cool. We’re actually I’m talking to them about a project right Now. So I’m excited about it. We’ll see where it goes but what? ah I’ve always been ah, just fascinated by the brand. It’s brilliant and it’s it stands for I think a lot of things that. I’ll say important to me personally just the whole experience to design. Ah the the user experience. Everything about it is just really Impeccable. So hey I could talk to you for hours. But here I have one last question that I ask everybody every time for you. This will be maybe very difficult because you just literally. Ah you know your tires barely touch ground and you’re off somewhere else. So. If You had 1 final meal. What would you eat where and why.

39:55.48

Ben

Oh that’s a tough one. Um, one final meal. So um, um, ah, no, no, it’s not going to be bad. Yeah no, so it has to be a social meal. What I would do I would cook ba. Yeah.

40:01.87

vigorbranding

Um, it can’t be the swedish meatballs that Ikea either. Yeah.

40:10.76

Ben

Think it’s a very social meal because you cook it with friends. You know you stand around it. It’s our version of the barbecue you stand around it and cook it together I will have it with friends and family. You know, ah last week we had some friends over and you know my stomach hurt from from laughs.

40:10.87

vigorbranding

Um, ah, nice. Yeah yep.

40:26.19

vigorbranding

Awesome.

40:28.20

Ben

That’s really yeah, you know the social component of eating I think is the important thing. Ah more so than than what you actually eat but that would be um, you know I would eat a baya ah together with friends and family have a good laugh. And it could be anywhere in the world.

40:47.19

vigorbranding

That’s fantastic. Well um, like I said I’m heading to Madrid here in two weeks so I’m really excited about the the payeea I’m sure that’ll be fantastic and I can’t thank you enough I do want to do this again. I mean I have a million more questions I could we got to dove into so many of these areas so much deeper. Phenomenal, fantastic congratulations on all your success and and thank you very much. You got it all right man talk soon.

41:05.14

Ben

Thank you very much thanks for having Michael look forward to stay touch have a good one. Cheers.